Curse

Cathode_Reborn · Jun 07, 2008, 08:38 PM // 20:38

Ever since the AI update to this skill, pretty much everyone started putting it on their hero MM bars. I've been using it too, and I've also been vanquishing abit lately and it's starting to look like the combo isn't as good as it seems...

In short, if the minions are taking damage, you arn't. I don't think I've ever been in a situation where DS actually made itself super useful. Thing is, the minions are often the ones to run into a mob first. If you there's good amount of minions around, your team won't be really taking damage. There'll be the occasional damage that gets through, but that'll just get fixed up by the healers. What DS should be doing is handling the AoE damage but, they're often the first ones to die by it. Once most of the minion wall is down, your team is gonna be the ones taking that aoe damage. At that point there's probably a very few minions left standing and the healing from DS will have gone to waste. I've found that I get massive healing from it when the team isn't really taking damage at all. Seeing tons of 35's popup on the screen from healing is nice but, they never popup when the team needs it most.

It's been a slightly decent skill from what I've seen so far, but definitely far from great. Of course, I'm talking about heroes here. I think DS is something you put on a human MM bar, since the player has better control over minion deaths.

Carboplatin · Jun 07, 2008, 08:52 PM // 20:52

the extra healing really isn't needed imo. I prefer to slot more dmg.

MagmaRed · Jun 07, 2008, 08:53 PM // 20:53

5 energy, 5 second recharge, 30 second duration, AoE cast effect (target and all nearby allies). Provides some team healing yes, but more importantly, it provides a significant source of cover enchantments. Facing Necros and Mesmers who like to remove enchantments, then your Death Nova and Jagged Bones get removed. This will cover those, provide team healing support, and last long enough that it can easily be maintained.

Best option? Probably not, but it is a good option depending on where you are playing.

Turbobusa · Jun 07, 2008, 09:39 PM // 21:39

Even better sometimes mobs just waste their enchant removal on Dwayna's Sorrow.
From my experience, minions arent always the ones to rush in first. Y'ou ll take some damage before. Even if you get overhealed, is it a waste? I do'nt think so. If you are overhealed, chances are that you wouldn't need the Aegis that often replaces it.

As for placing it on a human bar rather than a hero... I know I wouldn't, I just suck at targeting minions. I wouldn't play a bomber at all tbh, and I don't see the point of dwayna's sorrow on a MM bar.

In short, is it needed? No, but it adds to the bomber and could well replace one paragon as a support healer.

toastgodsupreme · Jun 07, 2008, 09:51 PM // 21:51

Like so many have said, it's good for many reasons.

It's a nice decoy for those enchant removal mobs.
It's a nice cover enchant for the entire party.
It's a nice heal when the situation calls for it (ie. 8 man party, aoe damage, monks not being able to keep up with party wide damage fast enough).

Even in 4/6 man vanqs, I bring it on my HB monk when I have the MM with me. Even more important on that build since it prevents HB from getting stripped.

It's not something that's OMGWTFBBQ YAY! But it is very useful in many ways. That's more than I can say for a lot of skills.

Cathode_Reborn · Jun 07, 2008, 10:47 PM // 22:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by toastgodsupreme

It's a nice heal when the situation calls for it (ie. 8 man party, aoe damage, monks not being able to keep up with party wide damage fast enough).

That kind of use looks good on paper, but doesn't always work out. The skill shines when cast on a group of bunched up minions, but if you have lots of minions, party-wide damage shouldn't even be getting to you in the first place.

cellardweller · Jun 08, 2008, 01:35 AM // 01:35

I generally run it on the monk not the MM, only putting it on the MM when i'm running H/H. I find it a godsend, I think our differnt experiences are because of this:

Quote:

Thing is, the minions are often the ones to run into a mob first.

In my experience, the MM usually laggs so far behind that the fight is half way over by the time army arrive. In this capacity, they provide good blocks for the back/midline heroes to kite through and leads to frequent minion death and a constant supply of party wide heals.

If you're the type that moves from one fight to the next as fast as possible, then DS is awesome. If you're going to stop and wait for minions between fights, I can see how it might not be as effective.

boogerboy72 · Jun 08, 2008, 02:21 AM // 02:21

after seeing a stream of blue numbers go up after a firestorm from some char. itll stay on my heros bar.

Chthon · Jun 08, 2008, 04:44 AM // 04:44

Not fantastic on a MM bar. A MM's minions shouldn't be dying often enough to get much mileage.

Absolutely fantastic on a MB's bar. Provides a pretty steady stream of healing, especially in long fights as the MB keeps on turning over minions.

The Red Messenger · Jun 08, 2008, 05:29 AM // 05:29

i vote no for dwaynas sorrow. current AI targets those with lower health first, so minions die first. once all minions area dead, then you start to take damage, so it didnt really help unless you're standing in AoE spells.

however, a jagged bomber has:

[blood of the master][jagged bones][animate bone minions][death nova]

all else is optional in my opinion. ive vanquished everything, and have tested all variations people have sent me...they all work fine

FoxBat · Jun 08, 2008, 05:40 AM // 05:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

Not fantastic on a MM bar.
Absolutely fantastic on a MB's bar.

I thought this distinction died and everyone realized bombing is the way to go by now. Sabway MM for example is really a "MB".

I guess you could still play the old max-barbs-from-fiends builds if you want, but many people mean "MB" when they are saying MM.

Moloch Vein · Jun 08, 2008, 09:10 AM // 09:10

Actually playing a "straight" MM build has never been stronger than now with the right party setup. Ursan Roar + Ebon Battle Standard of Honor + Order Of Undeath...

It's just that most people get really bored playing MM. The constant energy deficit doesn't help either.

toastgodsupreme · Jun 08, 2008, 11:51 AM // 11:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moloch Vein

Actually playing a "straight" MM build has never been stronger than now with the right party setup. Ursan Roar + Ebon Battle Standard of Honor + Order Of Undeath...

It's just that most people get really bored playing MM. The constant energy deficit doesn't help either.

Thank god Livia never gets tired of being an MM. =P

But as far as the OP, I still stand by keeping dwayna's. It's too useful in too many ways.

The decoy enchant to burn through the enemy's enchant removals is enough to warrant it in those areas.

And it seems lately that I keep running into monsters that spam chillblains like it's their job.

Chthon · Jun 08, 2008, 08:06 PM // 20:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by FoxBat

I thought this distinction died and everyone realized bombing is the way to go by now. Sabway MM for example is really a "MB".

I guess you could still play the old max-barbs-from-fiends builds if you want, but many people mean "MB" when they are saying MM.

See Moloch's post. Even without the Ursan in there, EBSoHonor + Order or Undeath is +32 armor ignoring damage on every hit for every minion. That's basically D-Slash-Warrior-quality damage on 10 minions. Far, far better damage output than a bomber could ever hope for.

There's only 3 reasons to really consider running a MB instead of a MM: (1) You don't have enough human necromancers in your party, (2) you really want the hefty condition removal from Infuse Condition + Foul Feast, or (3) Dwayna's Sorrow.

Yobs · Jun 10, 2008, 01:31 AM // 01:31

I prefer the hero to carry aegis and prot spirit for HM, DS is nice fun in NM but prefer to prevent damage in HM which is what MMs shine at. All those minions running about serve as huge decoys. The monster AI is sooo stoopid when minions are up.

Also with the PvE buff to LoD I find an LoD monk and a N/rit able to cope with party wide healing in almost all cases.

Yobs

Chthon · Jun 10, 2008, 05:12 AM // 05:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yobs

I prefer the hero to carry aegis and prot spirit for HM, DS is nice fun in NM but prefer to prevent damage in HM which is what MMs shine at. All those minions running about serve as huge decoys. The monster AI is sooo stoopid when minions are up.

Also with the PvE buff to LoD I find an LoD monk and a N/rit able to cope with party wide healing in almost all cases.

Yobs

I need top shoot Sab for this. I really do. Sigh.

Once again:

There is ZERO synergy with prot spells and MB's. ZERO. There is NO inherently good reason to put them on a MB. The only reason they go on the MB in Sabway is because the team build is designed for 4-man areas, and the other 2 hero builds absolutely cannot fit them in. In an 8-man area, the prot can, and should, be given back to the purely backline monks where it belongs.

Cathode_Reborn · Jun 10, 2008, 05:30 AM // 05:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

There is ZERO synergy with prot spells and MB's. ZERO. There is NO inherently good reason to put them on a MB. The only reason they go on the MB in Sabway is because the team build is designed for 4-man areas, and the other 2 hero builds absolutely cannot fit them in. In an 8-man area, the prot can, and should, be given back to the purely backline monks where it belongs.

Everything doesn't have to synergize to be good. You could give an MM some spammable Minion spell, Death Nova, a random elite, and it'd still be very useful. MM's don't rely on elite skills and they have lots of free skillspace. Prot Spirit also isn't cheap for a monk. There's plenty of reasons to put prot spells on the MM.

Turbobusa · Jun 10, 2008, 12:59 PM // 12:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

There is NO inherently good reason to put them on a MB.

MBers have max energy nearly all the time, have free skill slots.
Fill them with utility. In this case it's prot spells, letting you carry them without having to have your monks bring them and potentially screw with them (H/H - protective spirit is the best exemple).
The synergy of "sabway" is just abusing soul reaping through minions.
You still have the minions, you still abuse soul reaping the same way, it's not because of the whole build or something.

Sab · Jun 10, 2008, 02:00 PM // 14:00

The end effect is what's important, Infuse Condition/Foul Feast providing cond removal, Prot Spirit/Aegis as damage mitigation, Dwayna's Sorrow as party healing. After all, IC/FF takes up two slots, PS/Aegis takes up two slots. Does it really matter that IC/FF takes advantage of minions while PS/Aegis does not?

Chthon · Jun 10, 2008, 07:28 PM // 19:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sab

Does it really matter that IC/FF takes advantage of minions while PS/Aegis does not?

Well, in the case of IC/FF, it matters because you can't get that degree of cheap, fast, non-elite condition removal any other way.

For DS, no, it really doesn't matter much. There's a weak reason for putting it on the MB -- inter-character synergies can get broken when either of two people dies, but intra-character synergies only have one weak point -- but it's not a particularly compelling reason that certain skills must go on certain bars.

Really what irritates me is this foolish insistence I keep hearing from new posters that Aegis and PS absolutely must be on a MB bar because they are somehow integral to it. They're not. They're a viable option, no doubt. And there are times when your hand is forced because you need them, but can't put them anywhere else on your team. But they are absolutely, positively not integral to the build.

You know (I hope), that I'm joking when I say I blame you personally for this. But I'm sure it's your "Sabway" post that they're looking at and coming away with the conclusion that prot is a core piece to a MB build.